I received this email from Pat (who btw is contributing to The Review wonderfully with his comments, thank you Pat!) and I really think it bears discussing as this can really be a confusing part of submission. After reading part of my ongoing series on becoming a powerful woman he writes:
“…Your advice to women was basically to know their worth and respect themselves. People will treat you in line with your own evaluation of yourself, so start thinking like and being a princess.
Good advice as far as it goes. But it got me thinking about a submissive male’s worth. I agree that being assertive and selfish enough to look out for your own interests is essential for anyone in building self esteem. It’s something that I’m working on myself.
The problem is that as a submissive you are expected to explicitly thwart your own self assertiveness (well DUH, Pat!). Even if your mistress keeps you in your place in a loving way (so-called loving female authority), buckling under still requires self suppression, rather than self expression and self assertion.
So, if we agree that self assertiveness is a necessary component of self esteem then deliberately suppressing ones ideas, needs, and wants certainly must hurt self esteem.
This isn’t just theory. I experience this as a daily struggle trying to maintain self respect while still embracing my submissive side.
On one hand, I would love to find a woman to give myself to in that way. Then there’s another side of me that tells me I’m better than that and deserve better than being treated as an underling.
I’m stuck. My submissive need is not a fetish; it’s a deeply rooted emotional need. Yet, my rational mind will not accept it because I hold values that are diametrically opposed to submissiveness.
At times it almost makes me sick and I get very angry at my submissive side. It causes me a lot of stress – this war that goes on inside me. I’ve actually come to tears on a couple of occasions out of shear frustration. I just don’t know what to do…”
He makes a very valid point. How can you keep your self-esteem yet still remain submissive?
As I’ve discussed before we are all both dominant and submissive. Some of us lean more to one or the other and there are those who are just fully dominant or submissive. What needs to be remembered is that as with everything in life it takes balance.
Can a submissive male have self-esteem and self-worth? Absolutely! As he states submission for him is a ‘deeply rooted emotional need,’ and it’s this way for many men. However this doesn’t mean you have to choose one side or the other. You can have your submissive needs met and not lose yourself in the process. This is the reason we have ProDommes. It allows, for some people, the avenue through which you can feed that submissive emotional need without going in to the lifestyle completely.
As I’ve said many times and I don’t care how many times I have to say it, there is nothing written in stone, no hard and fast rules. Submission doesn’t have to include humiliation. Humiliation has always been a sticking point with me. I personally don’t like it and don’t like engaging in it. Although I understand the need and sexual turn-on from it, it just rubs me the wrong way. Some of you guys who have spoken with me and asked me to do this for you will know that I suck at it for that reason.
When you’re thinking of engaging in a lifestyle with someone on a full time basis you have to remember that it ISN’T all one way. If you want things to work you HAVE to sit down from time to time as two vanilla individuals and discuss what is working and what isn’t for each person.
I understand the need to fully immerse yourself in your submission and give yourself over to the right dominant female is a huge draw, but you should never, ever do so to the point of losing who you are, as I said earlier.
Maybe it’s easier if I give you an example and Ill use myself for it. I am 99.9% dominant. I run my life as a dominant, my household as a dominant, my career…you name it. However, in the bedroom, with the right alpha male I am 100% submissive. Submissive men in the bedroom get on my nerves. I want to be ravaged and ‘taken,’ not whined at and looking for direction all the time. As a matter of fact any submissive who was ever in my care has always known the rules for me and they are; you have a brain and I expect you to use it, don’t ask me for permission to do every fucking thing in your life, if you have an opinion I expect you to express in the right forum and the list goes on but you get the idea.
I’m not saying that there aren’t submissives out there who need intense direction, nor would I say that there aren’t dominant women who are more than willing to direct every aspect of your life, there are. What I’m saying is that you need to find a balance that works for you. It’s the reason why you’ll find many, MANY, CEO’s and guys who are in positions of great power throughout the day will walk away from that the minute they get home and drop to their knees. Does it make them less of a submissive or human being because they aren’t submissive all the time? No.
Pat I think your frustration is coming from that point of there being only one way to serve, either give yourself over completely or not and that’s just not reasonable or rational. There are many couples who are living the lifestyle that you would never suspect are doing so because they keep it separate from their outward appearance or public lives.
A good Domme of any kind will know you get much further with praise than with the cane or harsh words anyway. It’s identical to dog training. There’s a time and a place for everything you just need to find the right partner with the right frame of mind to make it mutual not one sided.
That is the problem. Domanint women prey on men with low self esteem. All the easier to control. Women must be proud to take that control. No matter that he was already prepared to give it. Belittle him. Demean him. What a wonderful future. So much more advanced.
Wait until you find a man who would rather die then submit.
What a wonderful Article! All the way around and I am very glad to see this addressed, because sadly often it doesn’t.
Allow me to give you my opinion on how I see and in a way from what I expect from my slaves.
As Dr. Sue said and I have the same phrase: You have a brain – use it. You have an opinion, worry, concern – bring it to me in the right form. That simply means use your manners while doing so. This is considered a “Speak freely” time and I teach ALL Of my slaves to come to me if their is an issue to discuss and ask me to for permission to “speak freely!”
This prepares me for listening to them as one equal to another or one vanilla person to another so to speak. This permission to speak freely as long as it is outside of a scene time and always purely in private WILL be granted without fail. Now that is not for flyby boys but for MY slaves.
Further more one of my other main requirements I have for slaves is that they are intelligent, mature MEN! Period. A men is not thoughtless, brainless, speechless etc. A submissive men doesn’t give up his mind and will, he simply bends it to mine.
My slaves are taught from the front on that they need to know their priorities with me. Now when most people say that it usually means that they (the Dom/me) are the first and only priority. Not so the case with me. First priorities are always – your bills, your health, your work. I come second to those and first before any personal entertainment you might have.
I allow and encourage my slaves of taking pride in who they are and I discourage the EGO. There is a difference. I belief that everyone should be able to take pride in a job well done and make no mistakes about it being a good submissive takes a lot of courage and a lot of hard work. I am nothing but proud of those of my good boys that know their place, work hard, achieve great things in their business as well as personal life. I want my slaves to prosper and evolve into awesome human beings (which is a continuous thing for all of us – it never ends).
I will try to put it this way. We, as a D/s couple, are the wind beneath each others wings. A slave NEEDS to be happy in his servitude to his Lady and he can’t do that if he sees no worth in who and what he is. In order to see worth in who and what you are, you need to be able to have a healthy (read healthy not over inflated) self-esteem.
Goddess Bella Donna
Beautiful post, Goddess Bella Donna. Your perspective is not one I’ve encountered often from dominants. It’s usually, “Your needs don’t matter,” “Your only purpose in life is to serve me,” “You are nothing without me.”
That’s why I originally posed this question to Dr Sue. I wondered how a submissive can have self esteem when the model of submission I was familiar with meant renouncing his very self. The biggest humiliation, for me, is to be told my thoughts don’t matter. To be silenced. Treated as an incompetent. It totally clashes with my self image. Other forms of “humiliation” – being spanked and chastised, forced to wear panties, or forced nudity – that’s all play to me. But take away my right to think for myself, or at least speak what I think – that’s humiliation and degradation. I don’t see how anyone could maintain their self esteem if they submitted to those conditions.
Many male subs also are fond of the incompetent male image. It runs rampant in the FLR and female supremacy crowds. The whole fetish requires one to revel in their immaturity and inferiority:
“I’m so stupid with money that my wife has to put me on an allowance. I’m so irresponsible that I have to ask my wife for permission to do anything. It’s obvious men can’t compete with women in the new economy so I should just find a woman to be a house husband to. I’m such a loser that I deserve to be treated like shit by a superior woman”
It provides subs with an excuse to be do-nothings. So much of what one sees about submission follows this model.It’s disturbing because it requires the sub to be of low self esteem to accept it, and then it reinforces the low self assessment. It’s toxic and self fulfilling. If one were to actually believe this it would have to show up in their results in life.
So I commend you on encouraging your subs to be successful and healthy human beings. There’s too much of “sub as loser” permeating this culture.
Dear Pat,
I’d like to respond back to your response once more and then will stop hogging Dr. Sue’s Forum here.
To your writing:
“Many male subs also are fond of the incompetent male image. It runs rampant in the FLR and female supremacy crowds. The whole fetish requires one to revel in their immaturity and inferiority:”
My response is to pretty much agree to a point with your perception. Of course the males subs are as fond of it as the newer generations of males are fond of just being guys. It takes all responsibilities away from them and allows them to be nothing more than little idiot playthings.
See now I personally have ZERO interested in morons, idiots, dumbasses and lame brains. There is NO pride, no skill and no know-how involved in dominating someone who is brainless to begin with. Where is the joy in this? If I wanted to dominate someone who can not voice an opinion other than maybe piss on my shoe (goodness help you if you try that one) I’ll get Me a dog.
I have seen the slow desecration of masculinity as in being a MAN period over the years and I am disgusted by it personally. Inside and outside of the fetish. BDSM – last time I checked it – was for mature adults who had a brain and new how to engage it in an intelligent way to enjoy mutually satisfying play times from both sides… AND to know and understand / live their individual positions they are drawn to. Nowhere does it say a male or female submissive for that fact has to be stupid and thoughtless in order to do that.
Matter of fact – I expect my slaves to think ahead. I would be seriously upset if I went to a Restaurant and had to order my slave to pull my chair out for me first. Or if I had to remind my slave to pay his Rent.
I know I am at large an oxymoron in the Femdom online and especially the Findomme scene. I guess having lived within the BDSM Lifestyle real time for so many years and having had a taste for a short period of time as a slave who failed due to being able to think, I have a different outlook on things.
I know what it feels like from both sides and I am sorry to say I hold both sides accountable at all times which requires open communication (can’t do that without both sides thinking), an evolutions of the D/s relationship (doesn’t work if the slave is forbidden to speak or think), oh a connection that often transcends time and space.
Goddess Bella Donna
Great Article. I live that life myself. Truly at my business I have to be assertive and aggressive and enjoy doing so. It helps me to be able to build and grow my business, however at the end of the day I just need a little of the opposite to balance my life. I like both in bed too (not that I get anything at all but when I did…) Generally speaking I think MOST women sit on the submissive side. And the ones who don’t often have troubles finding relationships or keeping them because if they sit on the dom side all the time its a bit emasculating for the man. And generally most men’s ego’s sit in this place.
I don’t know why everyone cannot just be a little of both, all would be much happier. Maybe a pro Domme is what I need. But humiliation isn’t. I think most men would be happiest with Aggressive dirty talk being told what to do in bed but also to play that role for part of the session so that all are satisfied.
Cheers
Thank you for your thoughtful response Dr. Sue!
I think you hit the issue dead on when you said that I am looking at submission as an all or nothing proposition. I’m not sure where I got that idea from (probably too much fantasy and internet) but I agree that it’s not a reasonable approach and that’s one of the things causing me so much internal discord. It’s a standard I can’t possibly live up to or be happy with, yet for some subconscious reason I am drawn to it. So I’m stuck in this magnetic middle, being acted on by forces of attraction and repulsion simultaneously. It’s a very uncomfortable feeling. Balance is definitely called for.
Your words resonated with me when you said:
“…you have a brain and I expect you to use it, don’t ask me for permission to do every fucking thing in your life, if you have an opinion I expect you to express in the right forum…”
Thank you! Finally, a Domme said it. It’s precisely the image of the sniveling little wimp that can’t make a decision for himself that turns me off of submission. Secondly, I think. A lot. I’m not a yes man and I won’t fake agreement with someone’s opinion, even that of a dominant woman, just because it’s supposed to be my role to do so. Having my thoughts and feelings disregarded as being insignificant is the most humiliating thing of all. You get this often in the FLR and female supremacist branches where men are painted as being incompetent, immature, or just plain stupid and in need of a woman’s wise guidance.
I also have a bit of fluctuation between dominant and submissive tendencies going on. I’m about 70% submissive but there are times when I tip over closer to 100% for short periods before I correct myself and it’s usually an over correction. Generally I’m an introverted, passive person but I have the ability to be very assertive when I choose to be and I haven’t yet learned how to balance those two sides – obviously. I vacillate between being very submissive and swinging back the other way to regain my sense of control. Again, it’s a case of the all or nothing mentality.
Your post stimulated a lot of thoughts in me and brought some things to light that I have always known but have refused to listen to. It’s hard to think rationally when you’re caught up in subconscious drives and emotions, until someone smacks you in the face with it and makes you see it. I think there’s a little more going on in my mind and I have an idea of what those issues are but I’ve taken up enough space on this blog entry. Understanding that I need to find balance in my approach to submission was valuable in itself.
Thank you for answering my question, Dr. Sue.